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of refrigerant insulation tape. The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. The oil used in R12 systems is not compatible with R134a refrigerant. Talk about what services you provide. Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. I'm putting r12 back in my system, but all of the valves I can for the application (1990 jeep grand wagoneer) say r134a on them. Poc temps desprs van decidir unir els dos webs sota el nom de Xarxa Catal, el conjunt de pgines que oferirien de franc sries doblades i/o subtitulades en catal. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. Your old hoses of course will not fit. -------------------------Just another brick in the wallHad a little mule I fed him castor oil and every time he jumped the fence he fertilized the soil, The older expansion valves were filled with the refrigerant they were used with, the replacement valves (today) are filled with a different chemical to work with both refrigerants..Hope this helps-------------------------ChickEmail: Chick---------------------------------------------Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose, I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. A York oil capacity is listed as "6.5 to 9.6 ounces". The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. 10,000BTU conduction heating? look at the difference! The difference between R12 and r134a is the BTU carrying capability. Even with proper fan operation, missing seals & air dams can effect condensor effeciency. 2) Frost on the Vents. = R134a Charge Level. Use strips of foam to couple the two heat exchangers if necessary.B. They might say for instance, add 3-4 oz of oil to the compressor, 1 oz of oil for when you replace a drier, 2 oz oil for the evaporator and so on. Discussion in 'Technical' started by Jsarnold, May 25, 2012. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. Generally this works well for the whole system. But, if your old compressor has lock-up or if your current expansion valve is not functional it would wise to replace the expansion valve with a valve designed for R134a. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. Bottom line, R134a simply doesn't cool as well as R12. Agram a retevis rt22 password i bastrop county district clerk records el material que oferim als nostres webs. #19. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1983Make: MercedesModel: 240DEngine Size: 2.4Refrigerant Type: R12Ambient Temp: 90Pressure Low: 35Pressure High: ?Country of Origin: United States, Hi, this is my first post, so please take it easy on the noob. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. You do not however need to replace all the o-rings or seals for a simple conversion, it is simply a logical thing to do when and if the time comes to work or replace certain components because of age issues. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. The first vehicle that used the R1234yf refrigerant was the 2013 Cadillac XTS. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . The whole trick is to sit there in those steam boxes and not perspire, it's vulgar to perspire when driving on public roads.If you want esteem, drive an MB, if you want comfort with 60*F interiors in a 125*F environment, get a Caddy. It has already been clearly stated that R12 is a chemical that damages the earths ozone layer and shouldnt be released into the environment no matter the circumstance. But with an R4, better too much than too little.3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12.4) The airflow across the condensor is crucial to good performance. R12 is used in several applications like low temperature, medium temperature, and high-temperature applications. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Some cars have both an engine coolant temp switch & a refrigerant temp switch, others only the refrigerant switch. You may need to adjust the valve in a bit to get desired superheat. And by matching the correct amount of R134a to use in a given vehicle, correcting the superheat of the expansion valve (if necessary), you can in some manner nearly balance or match the amount of heat drawn out by the evaporator and released by the condenser. One thing at a time here, and slowly, the knee is not up to jumping around like I used to at the moment. I'm going to check the condensor is way clean too. Most importantly, the oil used in the plant must always be compatible with the refrigerant used. 42 (at best) w/ 134A in 2000 isuzu trooper. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? Hmmmm. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. 5. 1) Warm Air From Vents. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. You may be just fine on oil - it depends on what compressor you have & how much oil you put in.A T/C is short for Thermocouple. The evap is hard to get at. And I already have so much time and money in this a/c project that I REFUSE to cut any corners as small as a TEV.It doesn't help that most people in the business (at least that I come in contact with, present company excluded, of course!) But R22 is almost equally damaging. It is common for eurocar threads to go multiple pages, and as Nick points out - sometimes cool is all you will ever get. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? Also called the orifice tube. Compressor. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Condensers designed to release greater amounts of heat help to expel the greater amount of heat which R134a removes from the cars interior. and feeds it through an expansion valve. Flush with a garden hose - do not use a high pressure washer - you can bend the fins flat & damage the condensor.B. . Here are the basics for converting a system that does not have a charge of R12, its empty. . gital control scheme. Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. I don't recall all the details, but starts off with the largest parallel flow condenser and improved fans. R1234yf. R134a Refrigerant Recharge Kit with BPV31 Bullet Piercing Valve and R134a Quick Coupler, R134a/R-12/R-22 Freon Refrigerant Hose Can Tap Kit for A/C System - Easy to use. Some 1993 and older R12 systems aren't as 'compatible' as you'd think to switch over. Skin contact: If the R134a (liquid) comes in contact with your skin, it could cause a burn. Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. You should keep in mind that recharging your air conditioner improperly could result in more serious damage. A good T/C, clamped to the line & insulated gives a repeatable measurement of the tube. R12 contains a chemical called chlorine that destroys the ozone layer, thereby causing potential environmental risk. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. As an example, let's say the R12 charge specification is listed at 2 lbs. This allows the refrigerant in the condenser to be void of oil particles. I used a full can of evap cleaner. The flammables have hydrocarbons. We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? Related products. So, instead of using R12, other better options include R401b, R134a, R401a, etc. Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. shown for the parallel flow, aluminum condenser that is listed. 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. This can be very very expensive. The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. #4. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. R404a for freezing of product. With R12 you use to check to see if the site glass was full, if it had bubbles it meant you had a low charge. Shorting the plug for the refrigerant switch should run the fan when the compressor is on. Swapping the components isnt a herculean task, but recharging the AC is a challenge. The ratings for evaporator temperatures 40F, 20F, -10F, -40F in the capacity tables are in accordance with ANSI/ARI = R134a Charge Level R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. Catalog E-1, Thermostatic & Automatic Expansion Valves / Page 1 Table of Contents . don't know enough about the subject to explain the choices.However, a few days ago I called the dealer to see about an OEM TEV and they said something that made me feel a little bit better; the same part number superceded every application back to the '60s, and that they couldn't do that without engineering signing off on it.Still, I would feel a lot better if I could see something written officially that compared the flow characteristics and performance of r12 and 134a TEVs are concluded that they were interchangeable in automotive applications.If someone knows of such a document I would sleep much better!Walt Edited: Mon September 12, 2005 at 8:13 PM by wamcneil. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. I had to vaccum the system for 2 hours and recharge 4 oz of PAG oil plus 36 oz of 134A freon (3 cans). There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Look at where the lines will end up. By using a black light the dye will glow in areas where oil leaks are visible. However, take note that R134a refrigerants are manufactured specifically for automotive air conditioners. If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. For example, at an evap temp of 30 (your daughter's system is probably running around 25-28 saturated in order to give a 32 duct temp), the pressure of R-134a is 26.1psi. Yes it will work with either Refrigerant! With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. ThanksPaul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. R12, on the other hand, has an ozone depletion potential of 1, implying that it can damage the ozone layer. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. Production of R12 ceased in 1996, although it can still be reclaimed, purified, and resold, and small cans of New Old Stock R12 are still widely available on eBay and Craigslist. I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . At 40, it is 35psi, which is a difference of 8.9psi. The system will be checked for gross leaks while under vacuum. Also, it can be used with all types of compressors. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. That is a good thing. The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. Also, R134a cylinders are light-blue in color. When ever possible you should ask the technician to note the same information on your repair bill and keep a copy in your glove box for future reference. With the A/c off hi and lo were both at 105psi. A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. With the oil leaking out and being told all sorts of things about how these compressors don't have a sump etc, I wanted to be on the safe side. Electric fans do wear out. Therefore, its most suitable for both commercial and domestic environments. Given two identical vehicles, each with the same weighted amount of refrigerant, the vehicle with the R134a has the capability to remove more heat (measured in btus) from the vehicle than the same type of vehicle using the same amount of R12. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. Could that be screwing up the systems performance?Anyway, when I installed the system, the new TXV (is that short for expansion valve?) At the time I thought nothing of it, but now I am thinking maybe that is contributing to the system not working as well as it could. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. It cycles on off in med (or low for that matter)Gotta tell ya. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). hardly noticable. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). Different correction factors are applied to other refrigerants. R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. . Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. Break out the new gauges and measure hi and lo at 1500rpm, and do the Merc FSM test to see how we're doing performance wise. R12 can move more heat than r134 so when it isn't very hot and the system isn't maxed out you wont be able to tell the difference but when its 110 out and the inside is 140 R12 will cool the cabin temp faster. Statisicaly your friend was lucky. PaulJerky King -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. Safe but sorry! There is NO reason to retrofit a vehicle to R-134a as long as the R-12 system is cooling properly and contains a normal charge of refrigerant. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Low refrigerating effect per pound: In comparison to other refrigerants, the refrigerating effect of R12 per pound is low. 3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12. The cost of recharging the air conditioner is between $150 to $500. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. Blows pretty hard on full. Heres some important advice Whenever you notice your R12 refrigerant is leaking, turn off all flames and open the doors so it can escape to the open atmosphere. If he is not in the garage fixing challenging mechanical problems, he is writing automotive repair guides, buyers guides, and car and tools comparisons. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. Can I just use an adapter and save $200? To ensure the right charge, you must fill the new system with between 75 and 85% of the factory-set capacity for optimal cooling. July 3, 2022July 3, 2022. Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. 2022 nba 2k22 starting a fashion label signing the designer, a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve, 2020 white paper of the church of pentecost, Chime Mobile Check Deposit Funds Availability, Why Does James Kill Donald In The Vanishing, nba 2k22 starting a fashion label signing the designer. is good, then I should be looking elsewhere? The original CFC expansion valve used for R12 needs to be replaced with an HFC one for 134a to feed the evaporator correctly. R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). From memory, I put in at least 8 ounces of oil, probably around 10 ounces in there. . Performance doesn't seem to have improved. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. Back in that era, my business associates drove those things, brand new, and maybe I should take my Cadillac instead, no they wouldn't be caught dead in a Caddy, people of our esteem should be driving an MB. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. It is possible I have 10 ounces (250 ml) in the system. Differences between R-12 and R-134a systems: 1. But I don't want to waste your time. There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . When the temperature is reduced to-7C or below, the plants ability to cool the airdrops significantly. Can I use the one for the R-12? By: james smith underoath; Comments: 0 . With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. With the knowledge of the differences, youll be able to draw a comparison between R12 vs R134a efficiency. The most common influences which effect the capability of R134a to perform well are the condenser, in some cases the the superheat setting of the expansion valve or the amount of R134a. They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. A/C receiver difference between R12 and R134a? Any suggestions, or do you need to know the hi/lo readings? Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? Look deep into the fins. Expansion Valve. If you have a York, and it is equipped with service valves, you can check & adjust the oil level without discharging the system. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. Replacement expansion valve for R134a or R12 A/C refrigerants, with O-ring connections. We, the Rxmechanic team, have presented a well-detailed comparison of R134a vs. R12. According to the thermodynamic characteristics, it is close to the R12 freon, however, it is 10-15% worse in terms of cooling capacity and is more fluid. The expansion valve(Tx) is in the car at the inlet line to the evaporator with compressors you best get advice from an ac specialist shop as the differences could be the gas that it pumps some systems use R12 and others use R134a or later gas yes R1234yf Freon gas can be replaced by R134a; the newer systems were designed with this in mind so no, there will be no damage to the compressor but some time in . . Very interesting! and an evaporator core and expansion valve that are optimized for R134a . Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. I'm doing one thing at a time so I know what the cause was. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. . This is 11F off the FSM performance graph - vent should be around 50F. Tamb oferim en VOSC el contingut daquestes sries que no es troba doblat, com les temporades deDoctor Who de la 7 en endavant,les OVA i els especials de One Piece i molt ms. Be sure to test @ 1500 to 2000 engine rpm, and record the ambient temp as well. Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . He used thermostatic expansion valve and Capillary tube for analysis with R12. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. I think the way to go here is1. The car never overheats, if that has any import. This is due to many facts: R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! The global warming potential of R134a is 1430. Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. Nice to use new gadgets! Add to cart. Later model cars that come with 134A will have 134A only connectors. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. Use a drop light in the engine bay, and check the air path from the front of the car at night. There is a lot of differences between the R12 and the R134a fittings, you can't mistake them. R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! Moreso, it had been banned. Hope this helps. Besides R134a there are some other refrigerants that are approved to replace R12 and there is a long list of refrigerants that are not approved. Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel.